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Re:Vegan a solution? Or disappearance of humans? (1 viewing) (1) Guest
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TOPIC: Re:Vegan a solution? Or disappearance of humans?
#4463
Scott (User)
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Re:Vegan a solution? Or disappearance of humans? 11 Months, 3 Weeks ago Karma: 1  
Mike wrote:
QUOTE:
Exactly what form of consequentialism to you subscribe to?


The one that says "If I do A and A leads to B and B leads to C and C leads to D and D is wrong, then it was wrong to do A, because I should have known better."

It's all psychotic and based in not being loved enough by my mother.

Stop laughing, because I'm serious.

In assessing my own personal psychological and emotional deficiencies, I've come to the realization that human beings are completely irrational and never truly evolve beyond infantile Freudian stages of egotistical development.

That's enough for today's lesson, kids. Come back tomorrow and I might say something that makes even less sense and makes you laugh even more than this psychobabble bullshit.
 
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#4464
Mike (User)
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Re:Vegan a solution? Or disappearance of humans? 11 Months, 3 Weeks ago Karma: 7  
QUOTE:
My belief is that, in a weird way, this whole Universe is alive...


Fine, fine. I have my beliefs, you have yours. This isn't a debate of beliefs. It is a debate of facts:

FACT: Nonhuman animals are suffering and dying under human exploitative actions at unfathomable rates.

FACT: Humans do NOT need to kill nonhuman animals in order to live.

FACT: There is no substantial evidence that plants have interests or can suffer.

FACT: More plants die when we choose to raise and consume animals than when we eat the plants, themselves.

FACT: The Earth is losing its ability to sustain an ecosystem that supports most current life (especially mammals) as a direct result of our misuse.

FACT: Veganism is a direct monetary protest against this misuse. Veganism requires fewer net deaths. Veganism does not require that animals, about whom we have little question regarding their sentience, suffer and die at our hands.

So either attempt to refute these facts, or please explain again how it is that your neo-Zen Buddhist beliefs (or your defeatist, doomsday beliefs) are justifying a non vegan lifestyle.

Maybe that will help this thread get back on track.

Mike
 
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Last Edit: 2009/09/20 16:01 By Mike.
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#4470
Desert Girl (User)
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Re:Vegan a solution? Or disappearance of humans? 11 Months, 3 Weeks ago Karma: 4  
Hey Mike! That was AWESSSOOOOMMMME!!!!!!!!! YOOOUUUU rock!

Sorry, I only read Mike's (last post). Read one, read 'em all. This dialogue looks like countless others we've heard before. Sorry kiddo, I just don't think "the universe is alive" can ever justify inflicting violence onto non-human animals merely because they taste good. To justify violence for pleasure is simple speciesism (no different to racism my friend). Maybe you could justify violence against blacks with Zen universal truths too while you're at it. Appologies for not ever actually reading any of your posts, but like I said, with my HOURS of forum experience, I really have read it all before. Sorry to be so blunt, but I have no tolerance for violence what-so-ever!

Have a good one! Cheers!

DG
 
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#4472
Liberación Igualdad (User)
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Re:Vegan a solution? Or disappearance of humans? 11 Months, 3 Weeks ago Karma: 4  
Mike wrote:
QUOTE:
Liberación Igualdad wrote:
QUOTE:
Rather, to point out that following our ‘best guesses’ do not make us hypocrites.


Nope. But saying that we'd like to do the absolute best we can to ensure the good of the planet, but then not committing suicide is what Scott feels is hypocritical.


Well, since we are entertaining consequentialist thoughts, then I'd argue that suicide is not necessarily the best option, taking in consideration the possible positive outcomes that can come from our interaction with other humans. After all, if I convince 1 human of going vegan and not procreating, I'm doing much more good (or less bad) "to the planet" than if I just killed myself.

Anyway, back on track.
 
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Veganism is simply the acknowledgment that a replaceable and fleeting pleasure isn\'t more valuable than someone\'s life and liberty.
Go Vegan!
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#4474
Mike (User)
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Re:Vegan a solution? Or disappearance of humans? 11 Months, 3 Weeks ago Karma: 7  
I know. I tried an argument like that, but you guys wouldn't take it. It may have been the procreation thread where if you are thinking about procreation in terms of the potential consequences of doing so (because the actual act of gestating and birthing a human is not, in itself, immoral), then you must also consider the potential consequences of raising your child to be an abolitionist vegan activist.

Not that I'm bringing that up again...

NOW back on track.
 
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#4475
Scott (User)
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Re:Vegan a solution? Or disappearance of humans? 11 Months, 3 Weeks ago Karma: 1  
There's a major difference - actually two - major differences.

The first is simple - Sam agrees with you here, and back on the procreation thread, he didn't. Therefore, he'll accept whatever argument you present as evidence here, even though he argued with it back there.

Second, when we're talking about one of us specifically (or me specifically, since I brought it up) contemplating suicide, we're talking about an act of free will on my part. I believe that to live is to suffer. I've even begun using the words interchangeably on occasion. I believe it was immoral for my parents to procreate when they spawned me, but now the choice of whether to kill myself to escape the suffering that is life or continue living is my decision. Maybe the level of my suffering isn't severe enough for me to actually go jump off a bridge and kill myself. Or maybe I just don't have the balls for it. Or maybe there's some part of my soul that still believes in miracles and fairy tale endings and is holding out hope to see a vegan utopia become a reality within my lifetime. Or maybe I'm just being selfish and I want to enjoy my new 54" plasma TV. The point is that the choice is mine and mine alone, AT THIS JUNCTURE IN TIME at least. Back in the 1970s when my parents were contemplating whether or not to have any kids, the choice was not mine. And so I'm choosing to stay alive, and with that, I have the potential to influence people in the future and hopefully steer them in the direction of veganism.

But where you err is in that you mistakenly use the potential good that can result from creating and influencing vegan children (who can then in turn influence others in the future) as a justification or rationalization for procreating. THAT is what's consequentialist, because it neglects to recognize the middle-man. In other words, it doesn't recognize that the mere act of bringing a new life into the world, one which you KNOW is going to suffer simply for having been born, is itself an immoral act. You can try to moralize it by saying the overall greater good can be accomplished by procreating, but that's utilitarian and fails the moral parsimony quiz (at least if you agree that to live is to suffer).

It's not just that being alive puts one in the inevitable position to endure inevitable suffering. The fact of the matter is with world governments operating in their current manner, we are all slaves and we are all being exploited without exception. Why anyone would want to subject their own children to this kind of existence (in addition to the natural suffering that is part of life in general and has nothing to do with government, politics, or authority) is beyond me.

Getting a little back on topic, or at least tying this together a little, I think the thread starter was hinting at the common criticism of veganism that speciesists see as a slippery slope, i.e., today we're trying to protect animals, next we'll be trying to protect insects, then plants, and eventually we'll prioritize every life form above humanity, and we'll have no choice but to extinct our own species. On a practical level, like I said in another post, I'm an immoral being because I'm indifferent to the potential suffering of plants - at least the ones I eat. But on a more theoretical, philosophical level, I make no attempt to hide my disdain for humanity, and ultimately, that slippery slope (that the scares the ever living shit out of speciesists) leading to the extinction of man is a goal I see as noble and ideal. Those who disagree with me are simply insecure and have a desperate need to protect their "legacy." They think they can become immortal by procreating and having their genetic code preserved after their deaths. One of the most selfish acts possible is to create a human child, not only because that child will suffer, but also because it delays the possible extinction of the human race.
 
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