Welcome to the forum. I'm glad you were moved by the film.

There are several things I'd like to point out in your post that will hopefully be food for thought.

1) "Did it ever occur to anybody that human beings might be just an attempt of the evolution to create a mammal-based parasite?"

No, because evolution is not a conscious system. It is merely a process of cause and effect. We got to where we were for any number of reasons, but a few of those reasons will arguably contradict some of your other statements.

That said, many humans ARE behaving in a rather parasitic way.

If you don't want to behave like a parasite (and it sounds like you don't) then now is the time to start looking at what choices humans make that are seemingly parasitic. We consciously destroy our planet. Therefore, we can consciously fight to stop the destruction and even work to repair it.

2) "If I would have to make a decision between saving a human being I don't know and a dog I don't know, I would definately go for the dog."

Ok, but this is also irrelevant to whether or not your actions are moral or immoral. Hopefully you wouldn't ALWAYS let the human die, otherwise that behavior is just as prejudice as ALWAYS saving the human. What it does show is that you're not going to save a human JUST BECAUSE it's a human. That's positive. It shows you're ready to start analyzing your options.

3) "Anyway, although I'm not a vegetarian or vegan and really do like meat, this movie really got to me.(Thinking about stopping eating dead animals.... mh, No!)"

Please continue talking to me about this statement. You've said that you favor non-humans over humans, and yet you say that you're not even thinking about not paying humans to kill animals. There are many ways that the human race is behaving in a parasitic way. One of them is the exploitation of animals for personal gain. The reason all omnivorous humans eat meat is because they really like it. Let's take a moment and connect that reason to the outcomes:

Humans pay to have other humans entrap, torture, and kill animals because they like the taste of their muscles and/or excretions.

Humans support an industry that causes immeasurable amounts of damage to the environment, because they like the taste of animal muscles and/or excretions.

Humans support an industry that lies to the public and squashes all who oppose them, because they like the taste of animal muscles and/or excretions.

Humans will reduce their quality of life through over-consumption, because they like the taste of animal muscles and/or excretions.

Humans will exhaust a wide variety of critical natural resources (water, forests, animal populations), because they like the taste of animal muscles and/or excretions.

Being a vegan means that you realize that "because I really do like meat" is no justification for being a planet-destroying parasite, and you recognize how important it is to teach others what you have learned so they, too, have a chance to make better decisions.

Ok, back to your post:

4) "Just one question to the non animal product eaters: what do you think about increasing exploitation of soil and human beings due to the rapidly growing soymarket, and don't tell me all of you are buying "fair trade" products."

I think it's awful. Single crop fields are a terrible idea. But make no mistake: the VAST majority of soy beans grown are fed to the animals we pay to have slaughtered and fed to us. It's a common misconception that somehow if all humans were vegans that more vegetables would be grown and harvested. Unbelievable amounts of farmland, crops, etc are all due to our growing appetite for animal flesh.

That said, it's also important that you understand that I DO buy only organic, non-GMO soy for my tofu and my milk. These are all part of living a connected life and making choices where you're learning about the impact they have in the world. GMO foods are destroying ecological health as well as smaller farms. Pesticides are destroying the soil (and health of workers) at an alarming rate.

5) "The individualism is from my point of view the reason why humans are not able to coexist peacefully with anything not even amongst each other."

This is a really neat idea that you're presenting, and it's something that we all can recognize. The only thing I would suggest is that we look at whether or not this is a result of our genetic makeup, or if it is bad education combined with disconnection.

Think about it, we in the industrialized world are bombarded with a mix of consumerist propaganda and political agenda through all forms of media. These messages all tell us to stand out from the crowd, be unique, and do exactly what they tell us to do. And just as you say, we do as we're told and we all do it in THE SAME WAY. Notice, though, that we still enjoy social contact, social structure, family, friends, and other groups that allow us to belong. Social cooperation is something that comes naturally. We like to be a part of something.

This constant desire for greater gains, the very behavior that makes us parasitic, is something that we're trained in by people who gain more power every time we make selfish, disconnected decisions. It's not in our nature, it's in our televisions.

It's good that you brought up Paris Hilton, because that's an excellent example. She is just a vessel. She's a vehicle created by greed used to promote our own excesses. We've been trained to be drawn to people like her, because she is famous for nothing other than her excess wealth. We've been conditioned to love/hate/envy/loathe/pay attention to her.

6) “Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed”

Excellent quote. It's time for people to think about what qualifies as need. Do we NEED to do all the things I've listed above? Is our pleasurable desire for animal products a NEED? If it is not, then wouldn't this qualify as greed?

I hope you'll stay around on this board for a little while longer. My first post was very similar to yours. I've only been a vegan and an activist for about a year and a half. Things can change quickly once you're poised for an awakening.

Take care!

Mike

It astonishes me to see how most people base their diet around soy when swapping from meat&diary products. Yes, it is a good substitute, but it is not perfect as we all know. I, personally, don't like the taste of (raw) tofu, it is somehow -accepting- tho not really good. Same goes for the baked one, usually it just ends like chewing on cardboard .
However I do love it when it is simply 'dressed' with lots of olive oil and herbs, basil, garlic, pepper etc.
And I love olive oil (despite non liking olives? ) and I put it nearly anywhere I can. Just pasta and olive oil can make a meal for me
It has to be a good brand. Cheaper ones are quite bitter and taste horribly, waste of good olives you could say.
Same for soy milk as it was very good on the beginning, but then our shops simply stopped buying it for some weird reason and only the low-priced and even lower-quality drinks were on the shelves.
Those were horrible to say at least.

You do however have plenty of choices for 'ordinary' milk, Q10, E+, Low fat and other (idiotic) stuff like that which sells well.

And there are many types of soy, nearly a dozen for each type of use. Some are better for drinks and other for tofu, some make better sprouts and some make better flour.

However, on modern monocultural fields, you find only One! variety which is grown exclusively only for stock and bird feed. High yields, forget the good and delicate taste, Round-up Ready so no 'messing' with all too 'horrible' weeds and so on.
These life-deprived lands grow money, not food. And then we put blindfolds on and say that massive environmental impact has nothing to do with our actions.

It is this immense greed that will send us to the early grave.
We have taken the 'burden' of sustaining life on our shoulders, saying we can do better than nature. Then later, when the whole system completely relies of us and needs us the most, we lift our hands and say we owe it absolutely nothing

Hard to say something about sustainability when one know to live only by exploiting. It is a dead end, and sooner you see it, the sooner you can turn back.

Hey Mike,
First thought: Oh my good once more a mr knowitall with no sence for sarcasm...
But as I went on reading... yes my brain is definately feeding...
No offense, but it happens often that people take things too serious, well in this case it's nothing to joke about. But sarcasm to me is way to keep myself from just hating mankind. Sure sometimes I think the best way for saving the earth would be suicide. But then, who's there to tell the rest of the people that they're not the highlight of evolution or special because God made them master over earth and animals. So I'm condemned to stay alive. (got it?)
And trust me I DO make my decisions in Life really thoroughly. But beeing real consequent would mean living a way without any luxury and providing your own food. More or less the Amish way (without religion). So sometimes we have to (do we really?) make compromises and go not the best but the least harmful way. There's a German songwriter (famous for smoking XXX and being a pain in the a.. to the authorities) who said he's tryin to live his life in a way that he can look into the mirror every morning with a clear consciencw, selfrespect and without being ashamed for himself. I heard this one the first time at his concert when I was 14. And I´m tryin' still to live up to my own expectations and beliefs. And this means definately not being awestruck by lifeforms created by the image of their god. Whatever this is going too far.
So far to nr. 1.
No2

QUOTE:

Ok, but this is also irrelevant to whether or not your actions are moral or immoral. Hopefully you wouldn't ALWAYS let the human die, otherwise that behavior is just as prejudice as ALWAYS saving the human. What it does show is that you're not going to save a human JUST BECAUSE it's a human. That's positive. It shows you're ready to start analyzing your options.

QUOTE:

Sorry for getting me wrong. I'm not analyzing. I am what some people would call a misanthropist. But as always the exception proves the rule, so I don't think ALL humans are AH. But most...
There once was a quote from a campaign against racism in Germany, translated: everyboby is a foreigner, almost everywhere! I changed it into:
Almost everyboby is an AH, everywhere.
So just to make sure I'm not misunderstood, I don't like humans but I have to live with it/them.
Just to give an example. there's this woman on this forum called Perrik. And, oh my god, she thinks it's cute that her kid should grow up with a dog because she did. WTF! But it gets better. How can she even consider thinking about buying a purebred, just, and that's the best, she wants a puppy... yeah, right just form the animal like you want them to be. And if the poor dog developes a personality, next stop animal shelter or highway. And... I thopught it's common knowledge that purebreds are less intelligent and also are more prone to sickness and have degenerated biological structures (German Shepherd, Irish Wolfhound amm.) just like the European nobility. and this selfish behaviour is something I just can't tolerate. And to be honest, if I meet people like her in real life, most of them consider me a unfrienly person just because I don't hold back if I think they suck. I mean, if I would think about having a dog I feel commited to think what's best for the dog and not for me. And I had some, all refugees from the bosnian war. and I in person took care that they got a good place to stay. and I'm still checkin' on them. No pets for selfish reasons, if at all. Cats, maybe because they're doing what they want anyway, and if you treat them bad they leave. A dog can't. The last one I took care of was a pinscher (red mini). and guess what, the former owner hung him up on his leash just to make sure he's not runnin' around his legs, hit him and burnt him with cigarettes. And after ten years of being taken from this SOB he still went mad when he saw somebody smoking and you didn't ease him down. And at first contact with male humans the same.
It's just... if somebody watches this movie and still thinks about buying a purebred... god help, who will make me believe that humans can change? Even in Germany where they got really strict laws nowadays, I would not think about it in anyway.

You see how mad I can get about things like that... and there's no end.
No 3

QUOTE:

Humans pay to have other humans entrap, torture, and kill animals because they like the taste of their muscles and/or excretions.

Humans support an industry that causes immeasurable amounts of damage to the environment, because they like the taste of animal muscles and/or excretions.

Humans support an industry that lies to the public and squashes all who oppose them, because they like the taste of animal muscles and/or excretions.

QUOTE:

I don't pay to torture and I don't support the industry.
I grew up on the countryside and so I'm used to provide for food for myself, even meat. and it's not like I have to have roastbeef or schnitzel every day, but now and then. And even if I pay people for killing these creatures for me... I choose carefully and only from people I know, and I know how.
You see i learnt to kill and slaughter pigs, cows chicken, ducks, rabbits and even guineapigs and dogs if they had and accident and it was just for saving them from suffering (I remember one time a bat) and I learnt to catch fish by hand.
Don't think it's getting easyer with the time as long as you have a conscience. And these animals werent held in cages or tortured. they had a quiet good life until they died.And it hurt everytime I had to, but it was part of my life.
There's the difference. The people who kill for profit are just ruthless killers with no conscience at all. And I think they wouldn't hesitate to kill a human too if they had to.
Something went really wrong in those peoples live.
Maybe I would also eat human flesh. but I heard it's not that tasty (not like chicken) and also really stringy.
But in some cultures it is considered a sign of respect to eat the body of a dead, so that he can live on through the ones who feasted on him/her. and sometimes to gain the power and strength of the enemy just killed.
So if I would talk myself out of this I would say they live on through me...
No4

QUOTE:

That said, it's also important that you understand that I DO buy only organic, non-GMO soy for my tofu and my milk. These are all part of living a connected life and making choices where you're learning about the impact they have in the world. GMO foods are destroying ecological health as well as smaller farms. Pesticides are destroying the soil (and health of workers) at an alarming rate.

QUOTE:

Nope, don't agree. Sure regarding to soy beans you are right. I don't know where you're from but in Germany it became quiet fashionable to buy "organic" or wholefood products. So it's now available in evere grocery discounter. It's one of Chinas top exportproducts.
And these people, unbelivable, think just because it's labeled "organic" it has to be true. Most times it is. But, for example, potatos. The "organic" potatos have 10 to 20 times more copper than normal ones because this is the only way for farmers to provide enough yield using copper as natural fertilizer. And that's just one example.
Sure there are companies which are really trustworthy but, let's think about this, expensive as hell, could be a real problem nowadays. And the average family can't afford it. Sure if everybody is going to eat organic food it might get cheaper, rules of the free market, but just as long the next SOBs come along and try to make profit out of it (it already started). So eating flesh is still cheaper than eating healthy and vegan. You see as long as animalkillingandtorturingflesheatingsociety is supported by the government nothing will change.
I'm on my way becoming vegan, but sometimes I can't help, and then a poor animal has to die.
One more thing. Due to my hobby as a drummer in a punkrock band I often come in contact with so called straightedge hardcore musicians or festivals, and really most of themm can't cook. A fact that kept me a really long time from even thinking about becoming vegan. But what I do like is the cooking of these Krishna Guys, this food rocks. And really I try my best.
And finally:

QUOTE:

Think about it, we in the industrialized world are bombarded with a mix of consumerist propaganda and political agenda through all forms of media. These messages all tell us to stand out from the crowd, be unique, and do exactly what they tell us to do. And just as you say, we do as we're told and we all do it in THE SAME WAY. Notice, though, that we still enjoy social contact, social structure, family, friends, and other groups that allow us to belong. Social cooperation is something that comes naturally. We like to be a part of something.

QUOTE:

Of course I didn't mean that it's within ourselves. Pure Pavlovization (I love words).
But who can tell a lie better than alier himself.
I'm working in this crappy mediacommercialadvertisingputtingmoreshitthanyoucantakeintoyourbrain industry and trust me you can't force people to believe things they're not willing to believe.
And how far is the www a part from desocialisation to society? Studies in Germany showed that the personal contact between young people is decreasing only chitchatrooms and SmS and mobilefonz. (and of course this article was presented by lieing media, again).
On the other hand it's a good thing. About ten years ago I wouldn't even had the possibility to know that you exist. There'r always two sides of the coin.
Whatever...

Enough space wasted of the precious www.

Was nice being lectured and brainfed from you, and of course also blubbering all my thoughts out into the open webspace.
looking forward hearing from you
so long... and now a big, fat, juicy.... carrot! (no shit I´m serious, I love carrots)

T.C.

I typically don't respond to people who are openly hostile without provocation. Whether or not you felt like you were being lectured, I was merely making suggestions based on things you said that didn't connect. I've never made a claim to "knowitall" and frankly, your name-calling is a bit childish. Should you choose to continue discussing on this board, I'd ask that you please be more respectful and mature.

What I will do, now, is point out your flawed reasoning. Not because I, personally, have the answers, but because your arguments are not logically consistent. I will explicitly indicate if I'm expressing my opinion. Otherwise, you can be sure that I'm indicating facts.

With that behind us, here we go:

There's a significant difference between being a misanthropist and being a speciesist. Saying that you hold little stock in the human species, is your opinion, though I think your sweeping generalizations are mostly unfounded. Saying, however, that you would treat a being differently BECAUSE he/she is a human, makes you speciesist. That is a prejudice based on species; not just a personal distaste for humankind.

QUOTE:
So sometimes we have to (do we really?) make compromises and go not the best but the least harmful way.

Why do you distinguish between "best way" and "least harmful way"? And what do you mean by "do we really"? Are you unsure of your own comment, or is this your form of sarcasm that I'm misinterpreting?

QUOTE:
Almost everyboby is an AH, everywhere.

You took the message from a logically consistent anti-hate, anti-nationalist advertisement, and altered it to meet your need for negativity, prejudgment, and hostility. In my opinion, this is a sad statement on your world view. Outside of my opinion, however, your comment is simply unfounded. There is no way you can support your claim. It is unnecessary, and it will be impossible for you to ever affect positive change in the world if you truly believe this.

QUOTE:
And to be honest, if I meet people like her in real life, most of them consider me a unfrienly person just because I don't hold back if I think they suck.

That might not be the reason. There's a difference between thinking that someone is doing something wrong, and expressing it in an aggressive, ineffective way. If you approached them in the way you approached me, I could definitely see them think that you are being unfriendly. Telling them that they suck (if that's what you mean by not holding back) would surely be an unfriendly thing to say.

These women need their purebred dogs just as much as you need your "roastbeef or schnitzel" now and then. So, then, what's the difference?

QUOTE:
You see i learnt to kill and slaughter pigs, cows chicken, ducks, rabbits and even guineapigs and dogs if they had and accident and it was just for saving them from suffering (I remember one time a bat) and I learnt to catch fish by hand.

In Germany, whether you hire someone to torture and kill someone or you learned to kill them yourself, the law sees this as an egregious violation of their rights. Saying that you know how to slaughter a pig does not mean you're not violating this pig's interest in living a full life. Sure, it might be less torturous, but if it is an unnecessary act, is morally right?

QUOTE:
And it hurt everytime I had to, but it was part of my life.

I'm not sure what you mean by "had to". Was someone forcing you to do it? If so, that's awful, and I'm sorry you had to go through it. Killing animals was a part of my life, as well, but I'll never look at it as a justification for the way things are.

QUOTE:
So if I would talk myself out of this I would say they live on through me...

People tell themselves all kinds of things to justify their behavior or to pacify their conscience. It doesn't make the behavior morally sound.

QUOTE:
Nope, don't agree.

Regarding your comments on organic foods:

It seems as though you present three arguments against buying organic products:
1) it may not really be organic (though you say that most of the time it is)
2) it may be too expensive
3) it will never work so long as we live in a meat-eating society

My responses are as follows:
1) Most of the time is far better than none of the time
2) If the majority of families in the developed world readjusted their expenses to meet their priorities, they could easily afford organic products. Maybe it means that they don't get as many channels on their TV every month, but surely this is an acceptable trade off, considering the benefits of organically grown produce.
3) There are many things that can never happen so long as we live in a meat-eating society. That is why I'm working so hard to educate people on the importance of becoming vegan.

As for cooking, I agree, the Krishnas make some delicious and incredibly affordable meals. There are lots of affordable solutions out there. I'm sorry your straightedge friends (most likely quite young, yes?) can't cook. But, if you do the cooking yourself, you might be able to get your mates to pay/clean for you and all you had to do was feed them!

Again, if you feel as though I was lecturing, please address that in a more polite manner, and be specific as to where in my post you thought I was doing this. I will continue to point out the faults in faulty reasoning, however, because the most important part of vegan education is dispelling false beliefs that cloud sound judgment. The only reason people eat animals is because of faulty reasoning and disconnected living. I will continue to try and reconnect people with their own values, but my intention is never to do so in an aggressive way. I assure you that I'm quite adept at the art of sarcasm, but I think you're confusing this with cynicism.

Enjoy your carrot.

Mike

Dear Mike,
sorry you got me wrong and if I offended you.
I meant "lecturing" more in a respectful educational way.

No1: I'm not treating anybody diferently because... I just really don't like them.
So it's your opinion that I am. being a spceciesist would imply, 1. I'm not human myself or 2. I would really put a lot of thought into it, which I think isn't worthwhile.
And it's not preconceptive it's based on experience and daily observation.

No2: Best way would be: Living without unecessary luxury, In harmony with nature. And therefore we would have to live like so called "primitive" people.
So as we all won't abandon our way of live, we live the least harmful way.
And there ARE people who are consistent, really consistent and willing to live their live without any compromises.

No3: I don't base my stupid ideas on facts. It's my opinion and theres something called freedom of speech. Further it's, as said before, based on my experience. And I can be really nice and persuasive if I want something to happen, so it's really not a thing having positive influence on my environment.

No4: No I'm always polite, up to a certain level of ignorance.

No5: Don't get me started on morality... do you grow your own food? If not do you know under which circumstances it's grown... (see No 7)

No6idn't ya? hm...

No7: 1.)I didn't said that buying organic food don't make sense. But the stuff you can buy in these grocery discounters is 30%crap ,30% a lie and the rest ok, exept that it is grown under exploitational circumstances and mostly shipped around half the world (morality?). Why the hell should I buy potatos from Egypt or Israel? Or Apples from NewZealand. And if the people don't care about this fact do you really think they care about where their animal products come from.
2.) Organic food IS more expensive and I don't know your economic or social background but there are people in this world who can't afford it, yet, due to wrong economic politics and globalisation. And they don't even have a TV, get their cloths from welfare and sometimes also part of their food. Even in our "developed" world.
3). Keep on doing so!

And for my "mates", if between 30 and 40 is young than, yes they are (sure there'r also youngerones) but in fact it don't matter this was just slipslop. But I agree and as a matter of fact I have some vegan cookbooks myself.

Finally I would like to ask you, I agree with most things, do you really try to understand people. To me it sounds like you take things personal very quick or my ability to write things with the same expression I would say them fails completely.
This knowitall thing is just because there are so many people who are always lecturing (and now not in a polite way) about spelling and how things are not logical and not based on facts. If there are facts I use them and if not it's just MY point of view and I'm really bored with people who can't tell the difference or don't, in any way, take their time and the care which should be given in communication.
So if you felt offended or insulted in any way due to the lack of my ability to express myself, I'm sorry.
But think about that this slaughtering and torturing has been a human tradition for thousands of years. And how will somebody learn to respect other species if he doesn't even respect his own. (to avoid further discussion on this topic: I respect them but therefor I don't have to like them).
And no, I'm definately aware of the difference between sarcasm and cynism.

And... thanks the carrot was great (organic and not from half way around the world)

write ya later.

Ok. I think we're getting somewhere now that I understand there's a bit of a communication barrier. Tone is a tricky thing over the internet, and you started your post off with a negative one. I would never call out your spelling errors, because those are irrelevant to a discussion about human/animal rights, fairness, sustainability, vegan education, etc.

I'll respond to your enumerated points to make things easier:

1)I was basing my statement on your original comment about saving a dog versus saving a human. If your disdain/dislike for all human beings stretches so far that you would always save the dog, then your are absolutely treating a human a certain way based solely on their being a member of the human species. It's not my opinion. I was drawing a conclusion from your own statement.

2)I think it is possible to live in a sustainable way without becoming primitive. It would mean that we consciously stop eating animal products and we consciously maintain zero population growth. But these changes are not that difficult. Go vegan. Have no more than two kids. I see what you mean about "way of life" but if we could just make these simple changes, first, then the rest may come easier. I definitely changed my way of life rather significantly. Am I at 100%? Nope. But I'm conscious of this, and I'm eager to help other people see the importance of doing the same.

3)I certainly hope you'll start to base some of your opinions on facts. You are free to say whatever you want, that is true, but this freedom doesn't mean that your opinions are valid. It just means they're yours to say. In my opinion, blue is prettier than red. This is an incontestable statement. In my opinion, the Earth is flat. Well, I'm still entitled to my opinion, but my opinion is incorrect. In my opinion, I should do whatever I please, so long as it brings me pleasure. Again, this opinion is false, because the laws of your country will not allow this. I should be able to harm animals so that I may enjoy the luxuries that come with doing so. This one is not as clear-cut, because legally, you're allowed to do this. Morally, however, you'd need to support your opinion with some sort of testable information.

4) Ok. Point taken. But I'm still curious how you distinguish between your killing of a farmed animal and a woman who buys her dogs from a breeder.

5)Your argument here seems to be if I am not growing my own food or can trace it specifically to its location, that morality has no grounds in my daily choices. I disagree. It's not all or nothing. My arguments for being vegan are not toppled because I occasionally screw up. I contend that with every step I take in the right direction (and the more people I convince to consider doing something similar) the better we will all be.

6) I'm not sure to what you're referring here.

7) I don't know where you've taken these figures from. But even if we were to assume that 39.99...% of all organic products are perfectly ok, that would still be a huge improvement over supporting the likes of Monsanto, DuPont, and other enemies of the Earth (and the consumer). In addition, organic is just one of many steps to take.

When I make purchases, I am conscious of the products that are vegan, have Fair Trade/Fair Labor options, made with recyclable/recycled materials, made with renewable energies, and locally produced (which my tofu is).

Even with all these changes to my lifestyle, I know that's not it. But just think of the extent of the impact if EVERYONE began making these connected decisions?

So long as fair labor and fair trade is established, buying local isn't as vital. But all of these steps are important. My choices change the world. They just do so on a very small scale. I need more people to join me before any huge changes can take place. The number of people becoming conscious must be greater than the number of people you describe as trying to take advantage of us with lies/mislabeling/and crap.

The only way to get there is through education.

Just think: your mates (I assumed they were young because of your mention of punk and straightedge...I forget that punk is no longer part of today's youth culture) wouldn't have to worry about cooking all that often, because the vegan options would be the majority of the options.

Respect, as you point out, is a key issue. But I think that most people have that respect locked away somewhere within them. It's just being squashed by all the distractions we've been given. The more you draw that awareness into people's minds, the more you realize that humans really are a rather compassionate animal. We're just easily distracted by greed.

Mike